A bit misleading - “Like-New” device

[Drew94]

I decided to take advantage of some of the great deals for Fido's CPO iPhone devices. There were some posts about battery health for some of these devices, so I thought I would pay extra for a "like-new" device to avoid this issue. 

Anxious and excited, I received the device only to be dissaponted to see that the battery was at 86% health. I called support to see if I could exchange, and luckily they had another "like new" device in stock. Unfortunately this one too came in with a heavily used battery at 84%. Apple suggest changing these at 80% and lower, which means I would be out of pocket to replace the battery within the coming months. The support team were all great, but unfortunately weren't able to offer and solutions other than to abandon the deal and get an entirely different device OR keep exchanging and hope to luck out. 

The Fido CPO device page mentions that "like new" devices are "throurogly tested" and "completely restored". However, it seems that this is not the case, as the batteries do not seem to be tested nor restored.  The current verbiage on the site and from support is a bit misleading and I would have reconsidered my purchase if the messaging was more clear. 

Is there any other support to contact about this? 

[KAPABLE-K]

Hello @Drew94 and @Fawa88,

When Fido or any company sells a refurbished device and labels it "like new" that is based on the overall condition of the device, not just one thing (battery health) there is no way for Fido to know the battery health for all the devices and allow someone to choose. Battery health can degrade not only from usage it can happen if it's just been sitting for a long time and even changes in temperature.

@Drew94 while I'm not an Apple user I did try looking but was unable to find anything about Apple saying you should change your battery when it hits 80% and giving Apple's track record of throttling devices with what they consider older batteries it would be difficult for me to trust a screen on their device that shows the battery health.

Fido does have a satisfaction guarantee period that you can return or exchange a device if you are not happy which I see you took advantage of but it still was not in your favour so at this point you are expecting to get a device with 100% or close to 100% battery health because Fido labels it "like new". I did see some information online to the tune that for Apple devices it will run at peak performance once the battery is above 80% which the two phones that Fido sent were above that. 

Since you are not happy with the numbers on the battery health screen and Fido can not guarantee what those numbers will be then the only other option is to abandon the deal at this time and it might be better for you to pay more and get a completely brand new device and be happy with it.

[Drew94]

Hi @KAPABLE-K,

Thanks for the response. 

If Fido is labelling a device "like new" based on the overall condition of the device, and part of that device is not "like new", then they should not label it as such. The Used Phones page outlines "What is a Like-New device?" as "Completely Restored" and "Thoroughly Tested," stating the device is "as good as new." If there is no way for Fido to know the battery health of all of their devices, then their terminology "completely" and "thoroughly" needs to be changed as they are seemingly unable to confirm the condition of a relatively essential part of the device (the battery). Perhaps checking the battery health settings can be a future part of their thorough testing. This seems to be a consistent enough issue that this would at least be something for the company to look into. 

I won't speculate on Apple's practices regarding their batteries, but you can find countless articles about the battery performance and recommendations to replace it below 80% health. This is a recommendation from Apple support itself in-store, from the call centre, as well as on-device once the battery hits the 80% and under threshold. I'm not looking for the battery to be 100% or even 99%, but if it's labelled "like new", I'd expect it to be closer to 100 than 80. Having a consumer pay more for another device is not a solution, as this still opens the possibility for more consumers to be mislead. 

[KAPABLE-K]

Hello, again @Drew94,

I'm not here to take sides or convince you otherwise I'm just stating facts to the best of my knowledge, I really do not think it would matter what they label it as if some will just be focused on one specific thing don't get me wrong the batter is a major part of a cellphone. Even though I don't like to do this but I would assume when Fido claims a device has been thoroughly tested it means everything has checked out to work as a phone on their network, I've been in the tech field since I was 12 and I can assure you when a device is being tested it's not by the software on the device its by a triggering every sensor on the device to make sure it responds and functions and by putting a load on the battery and measuring the time it takes for it to drop to whatever percentage that device is configured to do and that's how the battery would be tested to see if it's bad or not.

You also need to remember Fido does not make these devices they are just a service provider you do not need to buy advice from them but they provide the customer with a means to get one at one place and give you time to pay for it.

In your original post, you said Apple suggests changing batteries at 80% I found that troubling that a company would suggest that that's why I tried to look that up to verify, the people at the Apple stores are all salespeople and at the end of the day they just want you to buy a new device instead of repairing the old one. 

Certain people would come to this forum and complain about how Rogers made 1.5 billion last year but won't say anything about a trillion-dollar company that can not produce a device that would not perform when the battery health hit 80% .

As I have stated and @Cawtau reiterated Fido does give a satisfaction guarantee and if you are not happy with the device you can return it at no cost, it seems fair to me.

[Drew94]

Hey @KAPABLE-K,

Thanks again for your reply! I appreciate your time to respond.

Verbiage does matter, especailly when comparing something to being "Like-New" or referring to it as being "completely restored". If they are unable to uphold those descriptions, then the use if "As-Is" should be implemented. As for testing batteries, software on the device can still give an accurate reading of battery health based on charging cycles and usage. We've come a long way in tech over the years, and these devicess are extremely capable of providing accurate metrics on device perfromance. 

I'm aware that Fido does not make these devices, however, they are providing them and making claims about the condition of these devices. Again, I'm not here to speculate on Apple's practices or sales as this is a Fido forum. The satisfaction guarantee is great, don't get me wrong, but it seems that their description for these devices is a major gap that has yet to have been addressed and above all else has led to lots of time waiting on hold. 

My compaint is this; Fido has information on their site which I have found misleading based on the verbiage they have used and the device I (and others) have recieved. 

[KAPABLE-K]

Hey @Drew94,

You are very welcome, I'm just here to help as best as I can.

At this point, I think it would be safe to say that how someone interprets the label "like new" can vary but the good thing is Fido does provide a way out if you are not happy with the device you got.

I hope you eventually get a device you are completely happy with, have good rest of your day.

[BobC83]

"Certain people." LOL. You can mention me by name. I'm not as thin skinned as "certain other people."

Although I respect your expertise in the tech industry, everything you said is irrelevant from a legal point of view. "Equality under the law" means that it doesn't matter whether the company makes $1.5 trillion, $1.5 billion or $1.50. They cannot make misleading claims in their marketing. Whataboutery is not a defence in the law. @Drew94 's transaction is with Fido, not Apple.

[Cawtau]

Hello Drew94,

  Welcome to the community!

  Sorry to hear you are not satisfied with your used device. I cannot speak as to the labelling they use for their device descriptions. However, in the FAQ provided in that Used Phone page you linked, they list what steps are taken to inspect and test those devices:

  Unfortunately, they do not mention the battery as one of the areas tested.

  If you are not happy with the condition of your device, it can be returned or exchanged 30 days from the date of your online purchase (as per FAQ).

Hope this helps 😀

Cheers

[Drew94]

Hey @Cawtau!

Thanks for the reply!

Yes, I see that same section. The issue still stands in the terminology that they use to describe these devices. Omitting the testing of an essential part of the device doesn't then grant he ability to deem a device "completely restored" and "Like New". 

They had sent me another device in worse condition (both cosmetically and battery-wise) within the 30 day exchange window and I was not looking to downgrade - becuase they sent another device, I was not eligible to get a new device until that device was returned. Unlucky timing as the device was still on my account during all of the holiday deals. 

[BobC83]

I don't believe this is correct. Consumer protection law favours the consumer. If, as you say, Fido cannot verify the quality of the components, they cannot advertise them in a way where the average consumer would be led to believe that they are a quality they are not - that is an "unfair practice" under the law. I don't believe that it is a defence for Fido to say that they assess devices holistically, especially when they advertise them as "throughly tested." A reasonable person, as defined in common law, would reasonably infer that to mean that all components have been tested.

Consumer protection law would also not require the consumer to demonstrate that the battery must be replaced below 80%. The law does not expect the average consumer to be an engineer who would know that. Therefore, the onus would be on Fido to demonstrate that an 80% battery works as well as a brand new battery, since they ought to have the resources to support that claim before they make it.

If Fido cannot warranty the quality of the parts in their refurbished devices, the law permits them to sell them "as is" with no warranties as to their quality. Fido/Rogers knows this and chose not to use this option. Therefore, they're responsible for the quality.

[Fawa88]

I was wondering about this too.  I wonder if it's based on the price of the phone.  Which phone did you choose and how much was the discount?  86% battery health is definitely not "like new" in any way shape or form.  There could be other issues down the road - not just the battery, honestly I would return the phone and cancel the whole thing before you get stuck with it.  

[Drew94]

Hey @Fawa88!

I chose the iPhone 12 PRO 128GB. The discount was only around a $5-$10 bill credit, nothing massive. 

They had offered to send another 12 PRO, which unfortunately had even more issues. My device is now beyond the 30 Day return window and I may be stuck with it. 

[BobC83]

I wouldn't give up so easily. Especially if it's a subsidised device, Fido must make it right. They can either give you a working phone or credit your account for missed service every time you send it in for warranty repair. Those are your rights under the Wireless Code. Consumer protection law also doesn't care if Fido has a 30-day return period if you spent much of it without a proper phone. I'd firmly, but politely, assert your rights with Fido and escalate up the chain.

[BobC83]

I think your best bet is to review your provincial consumer protection laws. They generally say that a business cannot claim that a product has a quality that it doesn't. Although provincial acts won't define "like new," they generally side with a consumer's definition as long as it's "reasonable" (within the common law meaning). Where there is ambiguity or subjectivity, consumer protection laws generally require an interpretation that favours the consumer (you).

For example, here's Ontario's rule on misrepresentation: https://www.ontario.ca/page/your-rights-under-consumer-protection-act#section-1

In your case, you could say that you expected a "like new" phone to give you the same performance and longevity as a new phone. Unless Fido can argue that definition is unreasonable (good luck, Fido), they have to demonstrate that a battery with 84% health will give you the same benefit as a battery as 100% health. Since you'd say that you would not have bought the phone knowing that they define "like new" to mean a battery with almost a fifth of its capacity used, you'd have a compelling argument that you were misled into buying the phone (a common theme on this forum).

This implies, unfortunately, that you'd have to sue Fido. But first, read up on your rights and explain them politely, but firmly, to Fido. If they stonewall, then escalate to whichever provincial agency enforces the consumer protection laws. They can usually intercede on your behalf and mediate. If that fails, you'll have to sue.

I'm not sure whether the CRTC Wireless Code would protect you in this matter, since it tends to cover plans rather than phones, but you can always reach out to the CRTC for advice, since they regulate Fido.

[Drew94]

Hi @BobC83,

I appreciate your detailed response! I've looked into this since your response, and it seems another institution (CCTS) also directly deals with complaints against telecom companies. This battery issue seems to be a common theme (as you mentioned), its a shame there doesn't seem to be much in the way of resolving it. 

Thanks for your help!

[BobC83]

I believe the CCTS is the consumer-facing wing of the CRTC. So you're dealing with the same regulator